Try Saying the Alphabet...

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

The web site appears grossly misinformed. The letters K and N
can be spoken without moving the lips or tongue and sound
quite different.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

John O'Flaherty

2008-11-07 17:14:47 UTC

On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:49:55 -0500, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

The web site appears grossly misinformed. The letters K and N
can be spoken without moving the lips or tongue and sound
quite different.

As I say it, "n" requires quite a bit of tongue movement. Unless you
mean a silent "n".

--
John

musika

2008-11-07 18:09:20 UTC

Post by John O'Flaherty
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:49:55 -0500, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue.
Every letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American
Language section of www.odd-info.com

The web site appears grossly misinformed. The letters K and N
can be spoken without moving the lips or tongue and sound
quite different.

As I say it, "n" requires quite a bit of tongue movement. Unless you
mean a silent "n".

K and N both require tongue movement. Just different parts of the tongue.

--
Ray
UK

Django Cat

2008-11-07 19:40:37 UTC

Subject: Try Saying the Alphabet...
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:29:25 -0800 (PST)
alt.english.usage,alt.usage.english,misc.education.language.english,alt.langua
ges.english,alt.language
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Try walking without moving your legs. You won't be able to do that, either.

DC
--

R H Draney

2008-11-07 21:29:36 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

2008-11-07 22:05:13 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

That's not true, but not for the reasons others have given. Your
insturctions were to try to say something without moving my lips or
tongue. I did this, but the letters didn't all sound alike. That's
because I tried and I failed. I still moved my tongue. And the
letters didn't all sound alike, as you said they would.

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Peter Groves

2008-11-08 00:13:27 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In the same
way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or "handbag" (which in rapid
speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag").

Martin Crossley

2008-11-08 01:35:02 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue.
Every letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American
Language section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the
D in "handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or "handbag"
(which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a subdued but
audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag (hand-bag).

Peter Groves

2008-11-08 08:23:04 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue.
Every letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American
Language section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the
D in "handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or "handbag"
(which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a subdued but
audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag (hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're using a
spelling pronunciation, which is normally a result of the word in question
going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I live in Australia and while
my students don't say "cup-board" because they use the word on a daily
basis, they do say "waist-coat", "boat-swain", "grind-stone" and
"black-guard" when confronted with the words in print because those words
are as unfamiliar to them as the traditional historically reduced
pronunciations /weskit/, /***@n/, /***@n/ and /***@d/ (where @ =
schwa). Similarly they say "walk" and "talk" to rhyme with non-rhotic
/fork/, reflecting the historical loss of /l/ after back vowels, but they
pronounce the first syllable of "falcon" like that of "talcum", presumably
because falconry hasn't been an everyday practice for a few centuries. Of
course this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

Peter Groves

Mike Lyle

2008-11-08 19:50:01 UTC

[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would be
a bag to put ham in.

Post by Peter Groves
which is normally a result of the
word in question going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I live
in Australia and while my students don't say "cup-board" because they
use the word on a daily basis, [...]

Why don't they use it every day, indefinitely?

--
Mike.

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2008-11-08 20:19:04 UTC

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:50:01 -0000, "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would be
a bag to put ham in.

I'm hearing Dame Edith Evans, an actress of impeccable diction:

The context:

The actor John Gielgud has good diction but pronounces "handbag" with a silent
"d".

Post by Mike Lyle

Why don't they use it every day, indefinitely?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Martin Crossley

2008-11-09 01:12:49 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:50:01 -0000, "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children.
In the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would
be a bag to put ham in.

http://youtu.be/oyuoUwxCLMs
http://youtu.be/tiNVy5nfbcQ
The actor John Gielgud has good diction but pronounces "handbag" with
a silent "d".

His sounds more like "hendbeg" to me.
Definitely not a hambag, nor even a hembeg.
Substitute the Northern English vowel sound into it, then go just a touch
nearer Dame Edith's, and it's near enough to mine.
(Rhymes with sandbag.)

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

2008-11-09 13:04:53 UTC

On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:12:49 -0000, "Martin Crossley"

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:50:01 -0000, "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children.
In the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would
be a bag to put ham in.

http://youtu.be/oyuoUwxCLMs
http://youtu.be/tiNVy5nfbcQ
The actor John Gielgud has good diction but pronounces "handbag" with
a silent "d".

I'll listen again sometime. At first hearing, Gielgud's "d" was, I thought,
silent, or at most, much less distinct than the Evan's "d".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Richard Yates

2008-11-08 22:00:35 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would
be a bag to put ham in.

Some on your list may lose the "d" less easily than others depending on what
the adjacent phonemes are. Elision of sounds evolves under pressure of
efficiency. If there were such a thing as a "hambag" we would be less likely
to lose the "d" in "handbag". As it is, if I were to use the word "hambag"
in a context that I thought the listener would not have heard the word
before, I twould probably exaggerate the pronunciation as "ham bag" and
fully release the "m" before starting the "b".

To claim that what Peter wrote is "baloney" and to throw in the
condescending "of course" to boot, you are blithely dismissing all of the
possible pronunciations that people make of those words. Based on the ways
in which pronunciation evolves, the similar words that clearly do drop the
"d" and the diversity of idiosyncratic pronunciations, what he has written
is entirely plausible and worthy of more careful consideration than you have
given it.

I would add that, in any discussions of pronunciations of our native
languages in which there may be a difference between spelling and sound,
great caution in reporting what we perceive is necessary. If we already know
how a word is spelled, we are undoubtedly biased to hear it in that way,
even if the sound is slightly different.

All that said, I think I probably do drop the "d" in "handbag." The tongue,
lip and voicing coordination from "n" to "d" to "b" is all very close
together in timing and placement at the front of the mouth. I would be
surprised if many people did NOT slide over the "d". there is no reason for
them to not do that, pending the invention and widespread distribution of
the "hambag."

I do not think it is as likely with "handguard" since the "g" is released in
the back, but it is still plausible that some do.

Mike Lyle

2008-11-08 22:51:07 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would
be a bag to put ham in.

Some on your list may lose the "d" less easily than others depending
on what the adjacent phonemes are. Elision of sounds evolves under
pressure of efficiency. If there were such a thing as a "hambag" we
would be less likely to lose the "d" in "handbag". As it is, if I
were to use the word "hambag" in a context that I thought the
listener would not have heard the word before, I twould probably
exaggerate the pronunciation as "ham bag" and fully release the "m"
before starting the "b".
To claim that what Peter wrote is "baloney" and to throw in the
condescending "of course" to boot, you are blithely dismissing all of
the possible pronunciations that people make of those words. Based on
the ways in which pronunciation evolves, the similar words that
clearly do drop the "d" and the diversity of idiosyncratic
pronunciations, what he has written is entirely plausible and worthy
of more careful consideration than you have given it.
I would add that, in any discussions of pronunciations of our native
languages in which there may be a difference between spelling and
sound, great caution in reporting what we perceive is necessary. If
we already know how a word is spelled, we are undoubtedly biased to
hear it in that way, even if the sound is slightly different.
All that said, I think I probably do drop the "d" in "handbag." The
tongue, lip and voicing coordination from "n" to "d" to "b" is all
very close together in timing and placement at the front of the
mouth. I would be surprised if many people did NOT slide over the
"d". there is no reason for them to not do that, pending the
invention and widespread distribution of the "hambag."
I do not think it is as likely with "handguard" since the "g" is
released in the back, but it is still plausible that some do.

Now who's being condescending? I'm aware of all that. Of course. But it
is, of course, complete baloney, hooey, nonsense, and erroneous to claim
that "handbag" with a "d" is a mere spelling pronunciation not used by
native speakers of English except when dictating to children. However
rapid my speech, my "handbag" is /not/ indistinguishable from "hambag":
it is probably sometimes indistinguishable from "hanbag", but I'm by no
means sure of that. Peter's post was over-hasty.

--
Mike.

Richard Yates

2008-11-08 23:40:30 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children.
In the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun,
hand-carved, hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag.
A hambag would be a bag to put ham in.

Some on your list may lose the "d" less easily than others depending
on what the adjacent phonemes are. Elision of sounds evolves under
pressure of efficiency. If there were such a thing as a "hambag" we
would be less likely to lose the "d" in "handbag". As it is, if I
were to use the word "hambag" in a context that I thought the
listener would not have heard the word before, I twould probably
exaggerate the pronunciation as "ham bag" and fully release the "m"
before starting the "b".
To claim that what Peter wrote is "baloney" and to throw in the
condescending "of course" to boot, you are blithely dismissing all of
the possible pronunciations that people make of those words. Based on
the ways in which pronunciation evolves, the similar words that
clearly do drop the "d" and the diversity of idiosyncratic
pronunciations, what he has written is entirely plausible and worthy
of more careful consideration than you have given it.
I would add that, in any discussions of pronunciations of our native
languages in which there may be a difference between spelling and
sound, great caution in reporting what we perceive is necessary. If
we already know how a word is spelled, we are undoubtedly biased to
hear it in that way, even if the sound is slightly different.
All that said, I think I probably do drop the "d" in "handbag." The
tongue, lip and voicing coordination from "n" to "d" to "b" is all
very close together in timing and placement at the front of the
mouth. I would be surprised if many people did NOT slide over the
"d". there is no reason for them to not do that, pending the
invention and widespread distribution of the "hambag."
I do not think it is as likely with "handguard" since the "g" is
released in the back, but it is still plausible that some do.

Now who's being condescending?

What was condescending? Do you mean that I was stating things that you
already know? If so, that would be condescending only if I knew that you
knew them. I did not.

Post by Mike Lyle
I'm aware of all that. Of course.

If you were, it was not evident in your post and you have not addressed it
in this one.

Post by Mike Lyle
But
it is, of course, complete baloney, hooey, nonsense, and erroneous to
claim that "handbag" with a "d" is a mere spelling pronunciation not
used by native speakers of English except when dictating to children.
However rapid my speech, my "handbag" is /not/ indistinguishable from
"hambag": it is probably sometimes indistinguishable from "hanbag",
but I'm by no means sure of that.

He made no claim about your speech, he just said that if your are sounding
the "d", it is a spelling pronunciation. I don't know why you refer to that
as "mere" as the could just imply literacy.

You have not addressed my several points about our own speech not
necessarily being evidence of general use or trends, and our perceptions of
our own speech being tenuous evidence. If you "are aware of all that" why
are you so certain about your own speech? (This is not a rhetorical
question; there may very well be ways in which you know your own speech
better than others know theirs. I don't know what they are, however.)

if you acknowledge that is probably sometimes indistinguishable from
"hanbag" then consider the microscopic change that is necessary to go from
there to "hambag" : the lips that close to form the "b" have only to do so a
tiny bit sooner for the sound to be an "m." It is such a small difference
that it seems entirely likely that many people do just that.

Post by Mike Lyle
Peter's post was over-hasty.

It may have been, but "baloney", etc. does make a case that it was. I might
disagree with his inference that no one says the "d" in "handsome", but his
description of how it probably often happens is a good one as far as I can
tell.

(Is " 'baloney' , etc. " a compound subject requiring "do" and not "does".)

Mike Lyle

2008-11-09 19:01:01 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children.
In the same way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich" or
"handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from
"ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a
subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag
(hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation,

That is, of course, baloney.

[...]

He made no claim about your speech, he just said that if your are
sounding the "d", it is a spelling pronunciation. I don't know why
you refer to that as "mere" as the could just imply literacy.

What I left above of the original message is a clear claim about the
speech of native speakers.

Post by Richard Yates
You have not addressed my several points about our own speech not
necessarily being evidence of general use or trends, and our
perceptions of our own speech being tenuous evidence. If you "are
aware of all that" why are you so certain about your own speech?
(This is not a rhetorical question; there may very well be ways in
which you know your own speech better than others know theirs. I
don't know what they are, however.)

I take that point. I will instead apply my comment to the speech of
other native speakers I know.

Post by Richard Yates
if you acknowledge that is probably sometimes indistinguishable from
"hanbag" then consider the microscopic change that is necessary to go
from there to "hambag" : the lips that close to form the "b" have
only to do so a tiny bit sooner for the sound to be an "m." It is
such a small difference that it seems entirely likely that many
people do just that.

Post by Mike Lyle
Peter's post was over-hasty.

It may have been, but "baloney", etc. does [presumably "not"] make a
case that it was.

No, but it, or they, was, or were, accompanied by an example. As it
happens, the shift to "m" from "n" or "nd" is a language feature to
which I'm sensitive, at least partly because I remember the derision
heaped on a schoolmate when he said "samwich", and because I've known it
to actually cause misunderstanding.

Post by Richard Yates
I
might disagree with his inference that no one says the "d" in
"handsome", but his description of how it probably often happens is a
good one as far as I can tell.

Well, yes; but it's taking it too far to suggest everybody does it.
Perhaps I reacted too strongly, as one sometimes does on Usenet.

Post by Richard Yates
(Is " 'baloney' , etc. " a compound subject requiring "do" and not "does".)

An interesting question. Sometimes that "et" is strictly an "and", and
sometimes in effect an "or". But you could argue that it depends on the
placing of the quotation marks. Thinking about it is beginning to
confuse me. In short, I don't know; but I prefer singular here, taking
the subject of the verb to be the quotation, not the items listed or
implied in it.

--
Mike.

R H Draney

2008-11-09 02:44:57 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved,
hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would
be a bag to put ham in.

Was anyone here ever in a band that played Beatles songs to warm up?...now,
those of you with your hands raised, admit it: you used to sing "help me get my
feedbag on the ground", didn't you?...r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

R H Draney

2008-11-08 19:58:26 UTC

Post by Peter Groves
If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're using a
spelling pronunciation, which is normally a result of the word in question
going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I live in Australia and while
my students don't say "cup-board" because they use the word on a daily
basis, they do say "waist-coat", "boat-swain", "grind-stone" and
"black-guard" when confronted with the words in print because those words
are as unfamiliar to them as the traditional historically reduced
schwa). Similarly they say "walk" and "talk" to rhyme with non-rhotic
/fork/, reflecting the historical loss of /l/ after back vowels, but they
pronounce the first syllable of "falcon" like that of "talcum", presumably
because falconry hasn't been an everyday practice for a few centuries. Of
course this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't think it's
from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the birds themselves are
in plentiful supply around these parts....

What do your students do with "clapboard"?...r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Mike Lyle

2008-11-08 22:54:16 UTC

[...on "cupboard" among other things...]

Post by R H Draney
What do your students do with "clapboard"?...r

Half the BBC thinks it's pronounced "clapperboard". They ought to be
clopboard.

--
Mike.

Robert Bannister

2008-11-09 00:10:27 UTC

I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't think it's
from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the birds themselves are
in plentiful supply around these parts....

Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for
years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first
"a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume
the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK.

--
Rob Bannister

Martin Crossley

2008-11-09 00:47:32 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister
Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for
years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first
"a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I
assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK.

Do you ever hear "folc'n" ?

Robert Bannister

2008-11-09 23:45:27 UTC

Do you ever hear "folc'n" ?

No. The other pronunciation is more like "fawk'n".

--
Rob Bannister

R H Draney

2008-11-09 02:46:47 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister
Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for
years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first
"a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume
the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK.

US Ford had a model with the same name, but I think they quit making them in the
60s or 70s...I wrote to them around the time of Y2K, suggesting that a special
edition "Millennium Falcon" would almost certainly be a hit....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Robert Bannister

2008-11-09 23:46:30 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister
Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for
years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first
"a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume
the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK.

I wonder if they had a special model for Malta.

--
Rob Bannister

R H Draney

2008-11-10 00:02:18 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister
Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for
years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first
"a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume
the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK.

I wonder if they had a special model for Malta.

The car dreams are made of....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Peter Groves

2008-11-09 02:44:19 UTC

Post by Peter Groves
If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're using a
spelling pronunciation, which is normally a result of the word in
question going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I live in
Australia and while my students don't say "cup-board" because they use
the word on a daily basis, they do say "waist-coat", "boat-swain",
"grind-stone" and "black-guard" when confronted with the words in print
because those words are as unfamiliar to them as the traditional
rhyme with non-rhotic /fork/, reflecting the historical loss of /l/
after back vowels, but they pronounce the first syllable of "falcon"
like that of "talcum", presumably because falconry hasn't been an
everyday practice for a few centuries. Of course this doesn't quite
explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't think it's
from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the birds themselves are
in plentiful supply around these parts....

Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years.
In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first "a" as in
"pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker
is a recent immigrant from the UK.
--
Rob Bannister

It's the same in my part (Melbourne). But the car appeared after the
spelling pronunciation became established, I assume. Daniel Jones' EPD,
which describes a pre-war kind of RP, gives the pronunciations /f[OR]***@n/
(I'm using [OR] for the vowel of "fall") and /***@n/ (as in "folly") and
notes that /f[OR]***@n/ (without the /l/) "is the usual pronunciation among
those who practise the sport of falconry".

Peter Groves

j***@yahoo.com

2008-11-09 05:24:36 UTC

...

Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years.
In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first "a" as in
"pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker
is a recent immigrant from the UK.
--
Rob Bannister

It's the same in my part (Melbourne). But the car appeared after the
spelling pronunciation became established, I assume. Daniel Jones' EPD,
those who practise the sport of falconry".

The same three pronunciations are in the NSOED, without the note on
falconers.

Some of us in a.u.e. use the ASCII IPA system.

http://alt-usage-english.org/ascii_ipa_choice.html

I'm not sure how many can read it in the other newsgroups cross-posted
to here (though there's a lot of overlap between a.e.u. and a.u.e.).
The three pronunciations you gave would be /'fO:***@n/, /'***@n/,
and /'fO:***@n/.

If you don't want to use such a system, "aw" instead of "or" would be
less confusing to some of us rhotics.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Groves

2008-11-09 07:45:29 UTC

...

Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years.
In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first "a" as in
"pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker
is a recent immigrant from the UK.
--
Rob Bannister

It's the same in my part (Melbourne). But the car appeared after the
spelling pronunciation became established, I assume. Daniel Jones' EPD,
those who practise the sport of falconry".

Charles A Lieberman

2008-11-10 19:07:26 UTC

Peter Groves Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:44:19 GMT

Post by Peter Groves
those who practise the sport of falconry".

What's the archipelago near the Argentinean coast (if it isn't
/ma:lvIna:s/)?

I read of falcons before I saw them, so I go by the spelling
pronunciation /f&***@n/. I say John Woods's character's name from
"WarGames" the same way.

--
Charles A. Lieberman | "The explanation is extremely simple.
Brooklyn, New York, USA | It doesn't happen."
| --Nick Spalding
http://calieber.livejournal.com ***@gmail.com

R H Draney

2008-11-11 00:11:13 UTC

Post by Charles A Lieberman
Peter Groves Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:44:19 GMT

Post by Peter Groves
those who practise the sport of falconry".

I read of falcons before I saw them, so I go by the spelling
"WarGames" the same way.

If you need a pronunciation authority, try this:

....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

j***@yahoo.com

2008-11-09 05:15:25 UTC

...

Post by Peter Groves
Similarly they say "walk" and "talk" to rhyme with non-rhotic
/fork/, reflecting the historical loss of /l/ after back vowels, but they
pronounce the first syllable of "falcon" like that of "talcum", presumably
because falconry hasn't been an everyday practice for a few centuries. Of
course this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't think it's
from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the birds themselves are
in plentiful supply around these parts....

These parts too, one state over, but I don't think most people would
call them falcons. Someone lucky enough to see a merlin, peregrine
falcon, or prairie falcon would probably call it a hawk. I don't
think most people here know that kestrels, which are common, are birds
of prey.

--
Jerry Friedman

John Holmes

2008-11-10 10:57:05 UTC

Post by Peter Groves
If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're
using a spelling pronunciation, which is normally a result of the
word in question going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I
live in Australia and while my students don't say "cup-board"
because they use the word on a daily basis, they do say
"waist-coat", "boat-swain", "grind-stone" and "black-guard" when
confronted with the words in print because those words are as
unfamiliar to them as the traditional historically reduced
= schwa). Similarly they say "walk" and "talk" to rhyme with
non-rhotic /fork/, reflecting the historical loss of /l/ after back
vowels, but they pronounce the first syllable of "falcon" like that
of "talcum", presumably because falconry hasn't been an everyday
practice for a few centuries. Of course this doesn't quite explain
why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't
think it's from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the
birds themselves are in plentiful supply around these parts....

The most familiar falcon to most of Peter's students would be a Ford
model, and it has always been pronounced fal-con (or foul can, according
to some).

Post by R H Draney
What do your students do with "clapboard"?...r

They would be very unlikely to ever see the word.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Martin Crossley

2008-11-09 01:18:31 UTC

Peter Groves wrote:
(snip)

Of course this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for
/forrid/.

That's /forr'ed/ in my speech, with /forrid/ being understood, but not used,
as forward.

j***@yahoo.com

2008-11-09 05:09:13 UTC

Tryto say thealphabetwithout moving your lips or your tongue.
Every letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American
Language section ofwww.odd-info.com

That's not true, but not for the reasons others have given. Your
insturctions were totryto say something without moving my lips or
tongue. I did this, but the letters didn't all sound alike. That's
because I tried and I failed. I still moved my tongue. And the
letters didn't all sound alike, as you said they would.

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the
D in "handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In
the same way they don't utter a /d/ insaying"sandwich" or "handbag"
(which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag").

I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a subdued but
audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag (hand-bag).

If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're using a
spelling pronunciation,

There's space between "fully released" and "nonexistent".

Post by Peter Groves
which is normally a result of the word in question
going out of daily use.

"Calm" hasn't gone out of daily use, but here in America I often hear
the "l" in it and its relatives.

Post by Peter Groves
I'm English too, but I live in Australia and while
my students don't say "cup-board" because they use the word on a daily
basis, they do say "waist-coat", "boat-swain", "grind-stone" and
"black-guard" when confronted with the words in print because those words
are as unfamiliar to them as the traditional historically reduced
schwa).

"Grindstone" with a /d/ was familiar to me as a child from advice
about noses. Maybe in some equally traditional dialects, it didn't
get reduced. Or maybe that is a spelling pronunciation.

Hundbug. It's because "falcon" has the following etymology, according
to the NSOED. (I'll expand the abbreviations.)

"Old French _faucon_ oblique case of _fauc_ from late Latin _falco,
falcon-_, from _falx, falc-_ sickle, or Germanic base of Old High
German _falco_ [...] Latinized spelling with with -l- from 15th
Century."

So the "l" was lost in French, like so many others. But pronouncing
it is indeed originally a spelling pronunciation, after the "l" was
reintroduced.

I pronounce the first syllable of "falcon" to rhyme with "pal", the
most frequent pronunciation in America. The word is in common use as
the name of Atlanta's football team, though I think I learned it as
the name of a Ford model (the first car I remember). It may have been
fairly rare for a century or three before those uses, though.

Post by Peter Groves
Of
course this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/.

There's an even more common word that's pronounced often as it's
spelled. (Not by me, though.)

--
Jerry Friedman

2008-11-09 04:06:01 UTC

On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 00:13:27 GMT, "Peter Groves"

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

BTW, I wwasn't talking about silent letters. When I try to say the
alphabet without moving my lips or tongue, there are no silent
letters. I used to try this a lot when I was little, trying to
become a ventriloquist, and I tried again when this thread started.

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In the same

I do, and I'm a native speaker, and I'm sure I learned it from many
other native speakers, (who I'm sure still pronounce the words as I
do) in Western Pa. until I was 11 years old. After that, I lived in
Indianapolis but i'm pretty sure that didn't affect my pronunciation
of the words you have here.

There is absolutely a clear difference between the pronunciation of
handsome and hansom (as in hansom cab), and it is the D.

Post by Peter Groves
way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich"

I say the d in that, too. Absolutely. A full D. So big it
attaches itself both to the san- and to the -wich.

Post by Peter Groves
or "handbag" (which in rapid
speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag").

Not when I talk, rapidly or not. I've don't think I've ever heard
anyone say hanbag or hambag. Well, maybe a few say hanbag, but I hear
handbag, like I say it.

Maybe you are young and you hang around with people who don't know how
the words are supposed to be pronounced? I think maybe I've seen on
tv small children pronouncing the words without the d. With audio
only, or voice-overs, I think that might be a standard part of making
an adult try to sound like he's a child. For example, even though it
doesn't have any of the three words, I think adults trying to sound
like kids are used to sing "I don't want to grow up, I'm a toys-r-us
kid."

If you mean there is no stop between the first and second syllables,
that's true of handsome and maybe sometimes handbag, but the d
definitely affects the pronunciation of these two words, all the time.
Plus the D is always clear in sandwich. Without the d, they would be
pronounced differently.

Einde O'Callaghan

2008-11-08 05:40:48 UTC

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

Regards,Einde O'Callaghan

R H Draney

2008-11-08 06:12:59 UTC

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

Or "hautboy"....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

2008-11-09 00:37:13 UTC

On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 06:40:48 +0100, Einde O'Callaghan

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that what you mean?

If so, you should not assume there is only one possible ponunciation
of the d! :)

Post by Einde O'Callaghan
Regards,Einde O'Callaghan

I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

Einde O'Callaghan

2008-11-09 03:20:31 UTC

Post by mm
On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 06:40:48 +0100, Einde O'Callaghan

<snip>

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that what you mean?
If so, you should not assume there is only one possible ponunciation
of the d! :)

No, that isn't what I meant. I know some people who pronounce the "t",
just as some people pronounce the "d". That is why I said "it resembles"
it (typo corrected). I think it's probably a question of a person's
idiolect. However, I haven't checked what the standard pronunciations
recorded in the OED or Merriam-Webster are.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Ian Jackson

2008-11-09 11:22:48 UTC

Post by mm
On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 06:40:48 +0100, Einde O'Callaghan

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Post by R H Draney
Amazing!...the B in "debt" sounds just like the C in "indict", the D in
"handsome", the G in "gnome" and the S in "viscount"....r

You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that what you mean?
If so, you should not assume there is only one possible ponunciation
of the d! :)

Post by Einde O'Callaghan
Regards,Einde O'Callaghan

I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish
song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6).
http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_fyvie.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe

--
Ian

2008-11-09 23:11:19 UTC

On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:22:48 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by mm
You don't pronounce the d in handsome?

The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle".

For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that what you mean?
If so, you should not assume there is only one possible ponunciation
of the d! :)

Post by Einde O'Callaghan
Regards,Einde O'Callaghan

I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

Of course now I can't stop saying hautboy in my head. I wonder how
long before I blurt it out!

R H Draney

2008-11-10 00:03:44 UTC

Post by mm
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:22:48 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by mm
I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish
song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6).

Of course now I can't stop saying hautboy in my head. I wonder how
long before I blurt it out!

Let's hope the next Leap swiss-cheeses your memory....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

2008-11-10 03:49:00 UTC

Post by mm
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:22:48 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by mm
I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish
song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6).

Of course now I can't stop saying hautboy in my head. I wonder how
long before I blurt it out!

Let's hope the next Leap swiss-cheeses your memory....r

About what?

R H Draney

2008-11-10 05:49:11 UTC

Post by mm
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:22:48 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by mm
I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)

The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish
song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6).

Of course now I can't stop saying hautboy in my head. I wonder how
long before I blurt it out!

Let's hope the next Leap swiss-cheeses your memory....r

About what?

Ziggy's still working on that....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Amethyst Deceiver

2008-11-10 08:27:24 UTC

In article <fac30d73-daeb-447b-a383-

Post by javawizard
Try to say the alphabet without moving your lips or your tongue. Every
letter will sound exactly the same. - from the American Language
section of www.odd-info.com

Well, duh.

--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

a***@gmail.com

2008-11-11 09:09:07 UTC