grammar rule: "these" refers to last mentioned type....

[cguttman]

Hello folks,

please read the following two sentences:

There are several activities: a-type activities, b-type activities, and
c-type activities. *These* activities are most important in a rescue task.

Apparently, there is an English grammar rule that suggests that 'These'
refers to the last mentioned type of activities, ie c-type activities.
This sounds odd to me, is this correct? And if it is correct, is there a
reference where this rule is stated?

Thanks, Chris

[Jim Heckman]

Post by cguttman
Hello folks,
There are several activities: a-type activities, b-type activities, and
c-type activities. *These* activities are most important in a rescue task.
Apparently, there is an English grammar rule that suggests that 'These'
refers to the last mentioned type of activities, ie c-type activities.
This sounds odd to me, is this correct? And if it is correct, is there a
reference where this rule is stated?

To this native English speaker, your sentences above suggest that
a-type, b-type and c-type activities are all equally important in a
rescue task. If I wanted to say that the c-type activities are most
important, I would say "The last are..." or "These last are...".

[cguttman]

Thanks.

Yes, you can highlight any type of activity by an additional word.
For example, you could say:

"All these activities", and mean a,b, and c activities.
"These last activities", and mean c activities (which is still ambiguous).
etc...

But I was wondering if there is an English Grammar rule that says that
"These activities" always refer to the activities last mentioned.

Chris

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by cguttman
Hello folks,
There are several activities: a-type activities, b-type activities, and
c-type activities. *These* activities are most important in a rescue task.
Apparently, there is an English grammar rule that suggests that 'These'
refers to the last mentioned type of activities, ie c-type activities.
This sounds odd to me, is this correct? And if it is correct, is there a
reference where this rule is stated?

To this native English speaker, your sentences above suggest that
a-type, b-type and c-type activities are all equally important in a
rescue task. If I wanted to say that the c-type activities are most
important, I would say "The last are..." or "These last are...".

[Chris Croughton]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:37:44 +1100, cguttman

Post by cguttman
Thanks.
Yes, you can highlight any type of activity by an additional word.
"All these activities", and mean a,b, and c activities.
"These last activities", and mean c activities (which is still ambiguous).
etc...
But I was wondering if there is an English Grammar rule that says that
"These activities" always refer to the activities last mentioned.

Generally, it's the last or current sentence, so

I like plain cakes and fruit cakes. And chocolate cakes, these are
the ones I bake.

and it would mean that the chocolate cakes are the ones referred to by
'these'.

However, in speech it isn't always clear where sentence boundaries are
so this could be ambiguous. If there is any doubt, it's best to qualify
it with "all these" or "these last" as appropriate.

Note that a similar thing happens with time, as in "this Wednesday". Is
that the one just gone or the one to come? Often that is disambiguated
by the tense ("I am going to ... this Wednesday" is obviously in the
future), but 'next' is not so well defined, some people using it as "the
next to arrive" and others meaning the ones after that (today is
Thursday, if I say something about "next Friday", do I mean tomorrow
or the one after?). Some people even use both, depending on how far
away it is, so "next Friday" would mean the one just over a week from
now but "next Monday" would mean the next occuring one in 4 days time.

When in doubt about what is said, ask; when in doubt as to whether what
you say is ambiguous, disambiguate it. Assumptions of either can be
dangerous...

Chris C

[cguttman]

Thank you! This was helpful - well explained.

Chris

Post by Chris Croughton
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:37:44 +1100, cguttman

Post by cguttman
Thanks.
Yes, you can highlight any type of activity by an additional word.
"All these activities", and mean a,b, and c activities.
"These last activities", and mean c activities (which is still ambiguous).
etc...
But I was wondering if there is an English Grammar rule that says that
"These activities" always refer to the activities last mentioned.

Generally, it's the last or current sentence, so
I like plain cakes and fruit cakes. And chocolate cakes, these are
the ones I bake.
and it would mean that the chocolate cakes are the ones referred to by
'these'.
However, in speech it isn't always clear where sentence boundaries are
so this could be ambiguous. If there is any doubt, it's best to qualify
it with "all these" or "these last" as appropriate.
Note that a similar thing happens with time, as in "this Wednesday". Is
that the one just gone or the one to come? Often that is disambiguated
by the tense ("I am going to ... this Wednesday" is obviously in the
future), but 'next' is not so well defined, some people using it as "the
next to arrive" and others meaning the ones after that (today is
Thursday, if I say something about "next Friday", do I mean tomorrow
or the one after?). Some people even use both, depending on how far
away it is, so "next Friday" would mean the one just over a week from
now but "next Monday" would mean the next occuring one in 4 days time.
When in doubt about what is said, ask; when in doubt as to whether what
you say is ambiguous, disambiguate it. Assumptions of either can be
dangerous...
Chris C