Discussion:
QUERY: "dead" battery
(too old to reply)
k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
2006-08-09 01:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello all. I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm wondering if the
use of the adjective "dead" in "dead beattery" sounds appropriate in a
decent technical writing. My boss is against using "dead" and suggests
"flat" as a better alternative. I will take his advice since "flat" is
also a suitable choice of word, but I still wonder "dead battery"
really sounds negative? I think I had saw "dead battery " used in
rather formal writings written by native English speakers. Could any
native English speaking people enlighten me in the use of "dead
battery"? Thank you.
Dan
2006-08-09 04:12:20 UTC
Permalink
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English. Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."

Dan
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Hello all. I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm wondering if the
use of the adjective "dead" in "dead beattery" sounds appropriate in a
decent technical writing. My boss is against using "dead" and suggests
"flat" as a better alternative. I will take his advice since "flat" is
also a suitable choice of word, but I still wonder "dead battery"
really sounds negative? I think I had saw "dead battery " used in
rather formal writings written by native English speakers. Could any
native English speaking people enlighten me in the use of "dead
battery"? Thank you.
k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
2006-08-10 03:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello Dan. Thank you for your kind compliment and your suppoting my
instinct <g>. Yes, I had a hunch that "dead battery" is purely a
technical expression which conveys no positive nor negative
connotations... Aside from the fact that my boss is not that proficient
in English to use idiomatically correct English, maybe he wants to
eliminate any elements from our technical bulletines that would be
associted with poor quality products, also our bulletines are read by
many non-native people, who could be upset by some nagative sounding
English (?). Thank you very much for your enlightenment hitting on the
nail. You removed my frustration.
Frederick Williams
2007-09-18 10:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Hello Dan. Thank you for your kind compliment and your suppoting my
instinct <g>. Yes, I had a hunch that "dead battery" is purely a
technical expression which conveys no positive nor negative
connotations... Aside from the fact that my boss is not that proficient
in English to use idiomatically correct English, maybe he wants to
eliminate any elements from our technical bulletines that would be
associted with poor quality products, also our bulletines are read by
many non-native people,
There is nothing wrong in using the right word (discharged) _and_ also
explaining that it means dead or flat. If using both dead and flat is
going to increase the likelihood of your readers understanding you, then
use both.
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Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.
"He that giveth to the poor lendeth to the Lord, and shall be repaid,"
said Mrs Fairchild, hastily slipping a shilling into the poor woman's
hand.
Chris Croughton
2006-08-12 17:22:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 04:12:20 GMT, Dan
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English. Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."
To me an "unserviceable" battery would be one which is useless, not
capable of being recharged. I still often write the UK forces
abbreviation "U/S" (for "unserviceable") on equipment which is not only
'dead' but which cannot be revived (although sometimes it can be
rebuilt, more often it is destined for the scrap pile).

As a sound engineer I frequently refer to signals as 'dead' meaning no
signal or the channel is switched off, this is a common usage in the
sound/radio/TV/electrical engineering environment (signalling that a
circuit is 'dead' often being accompanied by a throat-cutting gesture).

Chris C
Dan
2006-08-13 04:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Croughton
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 04:12:20 GMT, Dan
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English. Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."
To me an "unserviceable" battery would be one which is useless, not
capable of being recharged. I still often write the UK forces
abbreviation "U/S" (for "unserviceable") on equipment which is not only
'dead' but which cannot be revived (although sometimes it can be
rebuilt, more often it is destined for the scrap pile).
unserviceable

adj 1: not ready for service; "unserviceable equipment may be replaced"
[ant: serviceable] 2: impossible to use [syn: unusable, unuseable]

from www.dictionary.com for unservicable
Post by Chris Croughton
As a sound engineer I frequently refer to signals as 'dead' meaning no
signal or the channel is switched off, this is a common usage in the
sound/radio/TV/electrical engineering environment (signalling that a
circuit is 'dead' often being accompanied by a throat-cutting gesture).
Chris C
and, lol.

I am former military, too (also, former signal corps). That is, in fact,
where I got the term. You had me second guessing myself though.

Other technical suggestions include ---> the battery is toast, an electrical
quandary, hunk of junk, pooped out powersource, circuit hole, A?C/s, etc.

Dan
Chris Croughton
2006-08-13 06:55:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 04:18:54 GMT, Dan
Post by Dan
Post by Chris Croughton
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 04:12:20 GMT, Dan
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English. Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."
To me an "unserviceable" battery would be one which is useless, not
capable of being recharged. I still often write the UK forces
abbreviation "U/S" (for "unserviceable") on equipment which is not only
'dead' but which cannot be revived (although sometimes it can be
rebuilt, more often it is destined for the scrap pile).
unserviceable
adj 1: not ready for service; "unserviceable equipment may be replaced"
[ant: serviceable] 2: impossible to use [syn: unusable, unuseable]
from www.dictionary.com for unservicable
Concise OED, 9th ed., 1995 (my earlier statement of 1999 was incorrect):

unserviceable: adj. not serviceable; unfit for use.

serviceable: adj. 1 useful or usable. 2 able to render service.
3 durable, capable of withstanding difficult conditions. 4 suited
for ordinary use rather than ornament.

There seems to be a slight variation in meaning between US and UK usage
according to the dictionaries (dictionary.com generally (always?) uses
the American ones).
Post by Dan
Post by Chris Croughton
As a sound engineer I frequently refer to signals as 'dead' meaning no
signal or the channel is switched off, this is a common usage in the
sound/radio/TV/electrical engineering environment (signalling that a
circuit is 'dead' often being accompanied by a throat-cutting gesture).
and, lol.
The throat-cutting seems to be international, I remember using it at a
German event and the other engineers understood it with no trouble (I
actually wanted to say "kill the channel" but didn't know the German,
holding up the offending lead and drawing my hand across my throuat
worked just as well). Oh yes, using 'kill' to mean "cut the
power/signal" is common as well (and I've noticed on some UK roads the
sign "kill your speed", it has evidently entered the general language).
Post by Dan
I am former military, too (also, former signal corps). That is, in fact,
where I got the term. You had me second guessing myself though.
I'm not actually military (short sighted, under-tall and have never been
fit (for use?); if they'd still had National Service they might have
been forced to take me but they don't want me otherwise), although I
grew up around several people who were ex-military engineering and
signals (all of my early learning in electronics was with people with
military background, some of them having served during the War and some
later) and picked up the slang particularly where electronics and
audio/radio are concerned. (I still often use Able Baker Charlie Dog
instead of the modern alphabet when spelling on the phone.)
Post by Dan
Other technical suggestions include ---> the battery is toast, an electrical
quandary, hunk of junk, pooped out powersource, circuit hole, A?C/s, etc.
Heh. Don't forget SNAFU and FUBAR (I have heard SNAFUed and FUBARed,
which make no sense if the acronyms are expanded). One engineer, on
being told that a cable was non-functional, told me to write F***ed on
it. I did, he's a lot bigger than me...

Chris C
Frederick Williams
2007-09-18 10:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Croughton
Heh. Don't forget SNAFU and FUBAR
About these. Did they originate with the US or the UK military; and in
either case, with which branch?
--
Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.
"He that giveth to the poor lendeth to the Lord, and shall be repaid,"
said Mrs Fairchild, hastily slipping a shilling into the poor woman's
hand.
Frederick Williams
2007-09-18 10:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Chris Croughton
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 04:12:20 GMT, Dan
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English. Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."
To me an "unserviceable" battery would be one which is useless, not
capable of being recharged. I still often write the UK forces
abbreviation "U/S" (for "unserviceable") on equipment which is not only
'dead' but which cannot be revived (although sometimes it can be
rebuilt, more often it is destined for the scrap pile).
unserviceable
Who knows? Might be rechargeable.
--
Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.
"He that giveth to the poor lendeth to the Lord, and shall be repaid,"
said Mrs Fairchild, hastily slipping a shilling into the poor woman's
hand.
Jack Hamilton
2006-08-19 04:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English.
Absent conext, I would think that a flat battery is one which is is
not tall. The battert in my mobile phone is flat but not dead.

If you use flat to mean discharged (or uncharged), how would you
describe a battery shaped like this:

============

?
Post by Dan
Other more technical (but boring and unnatural) terms
include "(fully) discharged battery" or "unserviceable battery."
Dan
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Hello all. I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm wondering if the
use of the adjective "dead" in "dead beattery" sounds appropriate in a
decent technical writing. My boss is against using "dead" and suggests
"flat" as a better alternative. I will take his advice since "flat" is
also a suitable choice of word, but I still wonder "dead battery"
really sounds negative? I think I had saw "dead battery " used in
rather formal writings written by native English speakers. Could any
native English speaking people enlighten me in the use of "dead
battery"? Thank you.
Chris Croughton
2006-08-20 11:31:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:05:42 -0700, Jack Hamilton
Post by Jack Hamilton
Post by Dan
You write very well for a non-native writer. Yes, "dead battery" is
perfectly acceptable, and, in the United States, would be the term most
widely accepted. One would find the term "flat battery" foreign. We would
understand, but we would know that it was written by a person whose native
tongue isn't English.
Absent conext, I would think that a flat battery is one which is is
not tall. The battert in my mobile phone is flat but not dead.
The word 'flat' has multiple meanings, like a lot of words in English.
Some words have opposite meanings in one context but identical ones in
others (for example 'fat' and 'thin', but 'fat chance' is the same as
'thin chance'). You can't take words out of context in general and
expect to retain the meaning.

For instance, if an American says "I have a flat" they are probably
referring to a tyre (or tire) which has lost its air, whereas if a
British person says it they are probably referring to an apartment.
And I play music which is written in three flats.

But that's also why English is so rich in wordplay and puns.
Post by Jack Hamilton
If you use flat to mean discharged (or uncharged), how would you
============
A thin battery. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary (1996) has 12
meanings of 'flat' as an adjective, none of which means exactly 'thin'
(the closest is "level or smooth, as in a flat surface).
www.dictionary.com lists, for the American Heritage dictionary alone, 17
meanings of 'flat' as an adjective (#3 would describe your battery) and
11 as nouns (three of which I didn't know before looking up that site).
You'd better use context...

Chris C
Miss Elaine Eos
2006-08-20 17:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Hamilton
If you use flat to mean discharged (or uncharged), how would you
============
"Low profile."
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I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.
Frederick Williams
2007-09-18 10:26:15 UTC
Permalink
... how would you
============
?
Egalitarian?
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Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.
"He that giveth to the poor lendeth to the Lord, and shall be repaid,"
said Mrs Fairchild, hastily slipping a shilling into the poor woman's
hand.
Miss Elaine Eos
2006-08-10 04:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Hello all. I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm wondering if the
use of the adjective "dead" in "dead beattery" sounds appropriate in a
decent technical writing. My boss is against using "dead" and suggests
"flat" as a better alternative. I will take his advice since "flat" is
also a suitable choice of word, but I still wonder "dead battery"
really sounds negative? I think I had saw "dead battery " used in
rather formal writings written by native English speakers. Could any
native English speaking people enlighten me in the use of "dead
battery"? Thank you.
"Dead battery" is what every American I know calls it.

"Flat battery" sounds British or Aussie, to me.

Misc "now my tyres have gone dead ;)"
--
Please take off your pants or I won't read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.
k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
2006-08-10 23:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Miss Eos, thank you for your useful advice. I think you're right. I
have an automobile engineering dictionary by a British writer which
covers both British and American usage. In the dictionary, the entry
of "dead battery" is defined as "= flat bettery", noting "dead battery"
is an informal usage (whether it is an US usage is not mentioned).
Where an entry is referred to as "informal", I always wonder whetehr it
is appropriate to use it in a formal context... In my limited
experience, an American goverment offier used "tranny" (meaning
transmission) in a letter addressed to us. I was a little surprised
becuase I had thought tranny is a very informal and colloquial
expresstion which shouldn't be used in a serious business letter???
Languages and their audience do evolve. It is hard to catch up with the
trend while I'm in Japan!
Chris Croughton
2006-08-12 17:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Miss Eos, thank you for your useful advice. I think you're right. I
have an automobile engineering dictionary by a British writer which
covers both British and American usage. In the dictionary, the entry
of "dead battery" is defined as "= flat bettery", noting "dead battery"
is an informal usage (whether it is an US usage is not mentioned).
My Concise Oxford English Dictionary (1999 -- I must get a recent
edition) has as definition 10b of 'dead':

(of a circuit, conductor, etc.) carrying or transmitting no current;
not connected to a source of electricity ('a dead battery').

It's a technical term, in this case, but since there is no notation to
say that it is either informal or US specific it can be assumed that it
is acceptable in any writing. In contrast, he entry for "flat battery"
says that it is mainly British (possibly the Commonwealth as well,
Australia and New Zealand for instance).
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Where an entry is referred to as "informal", I always wonder whetehr it
is appropriate to use it in a formal context... In my limited
experience, an American goverment offier used "tranny" (meaning
transmission) in a letter addressed to us. I was a little surprised
becuase I had thought tranny is a very informal and colloquial
expresstion which shouldn't be used in a serious business letter???
To me, being brought up in the UK in the 1960s, a 'tranny' is a
'transistor radio' so I would have been very surprised! There are, I
think, degrees of formality, "dead battery" being used in fairly formal
writing (I don't think I've seen "flat battery" used much in the last 10
years or so; the Concise OED says it is a British specific term) whereas
I wouldn't expect to see 'tranny' (either meaning) in any formal
writing.
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Languages and their audience do evolve. It is hard to catch up with the
trend while I'm in Japan!
It's hard to keep up even in the same countries, as discussions on this
newsgroup and others show! There are many words and phrases now in use
in (UK) English with which I am unfamiliar, since I am older than the
people who use them.

Asking native speakers about specific usage is always good,
because they do change (technical terms beoming common, words dropping
out of use, words formerly unacceptable in 'formal' writing being now
acceptable, etc.). I don't know any Japanese laguage (apart from
'arigato'!), is the same happening there? Do you also have the older
people who complain about the language becoming corrupted?

Chris C
Frederick Williams
2007-09-18 10:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
Hello all. I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm wondering if the
use of the adjective "dead" in "dead beattery" sounds appropriate in a
decent technical writing.
In technical writing, "discharged".

One can say this about "dead": where electricity is concerned, "live"
has a technical meaning, and "dead" is the opposite of "live", at least
in some circumstances, whether it is in yours needs some thought.
Post by k***@yamaha-motor.co.jp
My boss is against using "dead" and suggests
"flat" as a better alternative. I will take his advice since "flat" is
also a suitable choice of word, but I still wonder "dead battery"
really sounds negative? I think I had saw "dead battery " used in
rather formal writings written by native English speakers. Could any
native English speaking people enlighten me in the use of "dead
battery"? Thank you.
--
Remove "antispam" and ".invalid" for e-mail address.
"He that giveth to the poor lendeth to the Lord, and shall be repaid,"
said Mrs Fairchild, hastily slipping a shilling into the poor woman's
hand.
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